- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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Does Europe too weak to want to keep imperialist USA in nato
I think we should just accept that USA is not a real member of NATO anymore, and they have absolutely no intention of honoring article 5.
Let them leave so naive governments may finally wake up to the reality of USA being a rogue nation.
Trump isn’t honoring any other international agreements, so why would anyone expect him to honor the conditions of NATO?The only reason Trump has kept USA in NATO is probably because he think he could use NATO as leverage for his illegal dealings around the world.
I sincerely hope that NATO countries that have made a deal on F-35 will finally wake up, and cancel any remaining deliveries.
The problem isn’t the entire US, it appears to be this regime. So if you can wait out like 2+ years, there may be a return of interest in communal support. Likely never back to the reliance case as was normal for the last decades, but mutual support is worth holding out for.
Similar to Hungary and the EU situation IMO.
This regime won’t go away just because they loose an election. Trump might, but not the people who put him in power.
The constant threat that the checks and balances will fail again, will forever be present. Only if the USA has a massive political overhaul may the worries subside. Hence, any trust in the USA as a reliable partner is broken, until something big changes. Democrats winning the next 20 years of elections will still not fix what has been broken in the last few years.
The problem isn’t the entire US, it appears to be this regime.
Unfortunately the problem is not just the current administration, the current administration is a symptom of a problem in the American population and the American political system.
So if you can wait out like 2+ years, there may be a return of interest in communal support.
Key word here is may, but even if there is a return, the trend has been steadily worse, with Bush being so bad that it raised serious doubts, with a war based on lies, and comments of “you are either with us or against us”. Trump being elected once was bad, but Trump being elected twice was the final straw.
The conclusion among NATO allies is clear, and that is that we can no longer trust USA. Even Canada and UK have come to that conclusion as traditionally 2 of the closest allies to USA, even Denmark had to make defensive operations to Greenland, to prepare against an invasion from USA! Denmark has been considered the closest non English speaking ally for decades, for instance member of 7 eyes, where the 5 were English speaking countries. And it was Denmark that warned USA about Cuba getting nukes from Russia in the 60’s. Denmark has never failed USA, yet USA threaten to invade the Kingdom of Denmark!!!mutual support is worth holding out for.
Yes, if USA returns to normal we will of course cooperate with USA, but PAX Americana is dead, and we cannot rely on USA for our defense equipment anymore. Incidentally we in Denmark bought F-35 when Obama was president, to help Obama who was in a political pinch over the program. But even Obama did not respect international law, and spied on the governments of allies, and used illegal drone attacks into at least 3 countries, causing 70,000 civilian deaths.
Also with Biden many of the shitty things Trump did were NOT restored, and despite helping Ukraine with equipment, the things that would have made the biggest difference was held back, and Biden put very strict restrictions on Ukraine to not attack into Russia, which was completely insane, because you can’t attack the logistics supply lines that feed the front lines.
Ukraine is actually doing better now with no help from USA, because these restrictions have been lifted.
The decision is made in EU, that we need to work towards much greater independence of USA, for instance our reliance on American payment systems is no longer tolerable, and European alternatives are in the works. The same goes for cloud services and other IT solutions, that basically have been illegal in EU for years now, because USA can’t be trusted to uphold the agreement about sharing of personal information that was made with the Obama administration.Similar to Hungary and the EU situation IMO.
No not at all, Hungary is a very different problem, that unfortunately EU wasn’t designed to deal with. But EU has found ways to handle the current situation anyway, but right now we are just waiting to see if Orban will lose the election in 1-2 weeks.
So sorry but I do not see a return to normal in anything remotely close to the situation before Trump was elected to a 2nd term.
It is not just the administration that is crazy, and has torn up numerous international agreements, threatened allies, and failed numerous times to respect international law.
It is also congress and the people that have failed to reign him in. Even at this time 84% of the people that voted for Trump stand by their vote, and would vote for him again if there was a presidential election today.Don’t apologise, your points are valid.
I agree that there won’t be a return to normal, I even said that above, but Europe does not have the manufacturing capability to replace the US as an ally in the next few years. Hence there is either a hole in defence capabilities or we turn to another questionable country to fill that hole.
On the Hungary thing, that is what I also meant as in similar: deal with the situation for now as best you can, and hope for the light at the end of the tunnel to bring about their domestic change.
Hopefully Republicans will be replaced next election, but history tells us that it will swing back again, because people are pissed Democrats can’t repair all the shit Republicans did fast enough. And Republicans will scream and shout about how incompetent the Democrats are at fixing the problems they created. I’m sorry to say so, but the American population is stupid. And we can now see that no matter how incompetent and immoral the Republicans are, they will continue to elect even worse candidates. It would be nice if USA establish an actual democracy, maybe if Americans had more options, we wouldn’t see such radical administrations. But it requires getting rid of the way the administration is run by a president with way to much power. Look at the Scandinavian countries and Germany, that is way better forms of democracy, that prevent power from becoming too centralized.
As with Hungary we (EU) will always try do deal with USA in a civil and fair manner, the problem is on the US side.
Don’t count on the next US election. The Trump regime already tried a coup after a lost election. Even though Trump himself is as dumb as a pile of shit, the people behind him surely have learned their lesson from the failure of that coup. And that lesson definitely isn’t “don’t attempt a coup”, because it was practically without consequences for them. They are already working on changing the way elections work and are doing purges in the entire executive and judicial branch. They are here to stay.
Yep I agree 100%, and I don’t count on USA for anything, including having a fair election at the next presidential election.
I think that’s the general sentiment in Europe and obviously also Canada, that we can’t count on USA.
There are more layers to it.
Trump is a scape goat https://read.lukeburgis.com/p/peter-thiel-on-rene-girard and mad man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_theory
The Ukraine army was directed by the US https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/29/world/europe/us-ukraine-military-war-wiesbaden.html
and military intelligence was run by the CIA since 2014 (in German) https://feddit.org/post/28059198 .
Attacking deep into Russia must have led to a full escalation of the war. Everything would have been American but the nationality of the soldiers.
The objective of the US is more likely to just keep Europe and Russia in a conflict, along old strategic considerations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard :
in the meantime, it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus also of challenging America.
I don’t think that the US are stupid and run by an idiot. They are flooding the zone with gossip while the elite works on their geopolitical objectives.
The elites of the EU are deeply involved in this. Iraq war, even Syria and Libya, those were illegal and the EU kept silent.
The conflict with Russia was decades in the making. Putin asked for a joined economic zone in 2001 and by 2008 his speech at the Munich security conference suggests that tensions were rising. We still don’t know why approachment stopped. An independent EU would have educated its population about it because it would have made us the most powerful political entity on earth.
I don’t think that the US are stupid and run by an idiot.
They are, they are destroying their own power in every way, they are losing allies left and right, and Trump is ruining US trade (USA has been using trade as leverage internationally for decades) and destroying both the petro dollar and the dollar as the global reserve currency, and finally slowing down the US economy do China will surpass them faster. So the current administration is undermining US power in every way possible. And everything they do is idiotic. The secret genius is a myth.
Have you seen that Peter Thiel, the man behind Musk and JD Vance, believes that the masses need a scape goat?
Compared to Iraq, the US don’t behave more reckless. It’s just the communication that has changed. Instead of having a moral justification, people blame each other.
The chemical weapons were a lie. People still accepted the war.
The difference to now is that the internet reveals all lies. The Iraq war wouldn’t be possible today.
The US have adapted their population management to the new constraints of the internet. They don’t rely on morality anymore.
For politicians, nothing changes. The cover stories and morality was never part of their considerations. It has always been the power of the US, and that hasn’t changed much.
destroying both the petro dollar and the dollar as the global reserve currency, and finally slowing down the US economy do China will surpass them faster.
The petro dollar was not sustainable. It worked with Japan and Germany who are friendly and don’t threaten economic war and keep holding the bonds. China created BRICS and a global basket currency. The EU is more dangerous on paper, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élysée_Treaty controversy, it’s a US creation.
Tariffs are the other option to manage the US economy, instead of the trade deficit. To not give China back all their dollars, devaluating the Dollar is even rational. But it’s difficult to communicate. A mad Trump is the solution.
The Chinese economy is supposed to not matter because China, and Russia, is going to be isolated. The strategy is called decoupling. The oil from Iran is the start. I am worried that that doesn’t work because then the US only has the nuclear option.
Peter Thiel
Peter “the antichrist ist coming” Thiel. Sounds more like an unhinged conspiracy theorist than some smart mastermind.
The difference to now is that the internet reveals all lies. The Iraq war wouldn’t be possible today.
The internet has existed back then, too. One might even argue it was a better internet, because all those “social media” propaganda mills were still in their infancy, or didn’t even exist yet. If the change of the internet has done anything compared to back then, then it has made it easier to spread lies to the masses.
unhinged conspiracy theorist
I thought so, too but the theories match too much on Trump. They may be unhinged but I think they are implemented.
One might even argue it was a better internet,
I would agree
it has made it easier to spread lies to the masses.
The internet also spreads the truth. The art is to let people read the truth without them recognizing it among lies.
My impression is that the US have mastered that art.
Just let them leave, or even better, pressure them to withdraw and show some teeth finally. With this whole “pwease amewica do not leave us” all they show is that trump is right with his paper tiger argument. Fuck the US, reform or fully rebuild the NATO in a proper way, without interference of rogue and enemy states.
So fucking what that the EU does not have as much forces as the US do? If Europe or NATO learned something from the Ukraine war, then it’s that a kid with a gamepad and a 100 USD drone jerry rigged with explosives can take out heavy armor. What’s the worth of an American soldier in NATO, if he’ll go rogue on order tangerine? And when it comes to a direct conflict against the US it’s not about military strength, but only about how far the current president will be willing to go. If they decide on scorched earth (conventional, not nuclear) you’re fucked, no matter whether you’re in the NATO or they’re in the NATO, simply because of the stockpile of painful shit they have access to.
Restructure the NATO as a proper defense alliance centered around European forces and under European command, where every member contributes defensive capabilities, without hiding behind single members and with their own technology, instead of constantly relying on US and Israel tech.
Start planning!
It’s way too late to start planning now. Planning should have started with Dumbya Bush’s war in Iraq. Now is time for action.
There’s never a too late to plan. Only a better moment to do so. A mediocre plan and hope is better than nothing and defeatism.
That’s what I mean.
All allies of the US should be reconsidering their arrangement.
👋
Trump. Forget him.
