For the majority of people a 1080p60 with a high bitrate and 10+ bit color space will look absolutely perfect. Some can pixel peep and tell, but more people still struggle seeing when the aspect ratio is wrong on their TV.
What’s interesting to me is that film is roughly, perceptually around 8K. However, very very few people have cinema-sized screens in their home, so what’s the point if it’s “only” even 80 inches?
I think giant 8K monitors are still useful for productivity, but only for a small number of people. I personally like having multiple monitors over one big one.
I cannot fathom why, but people do not seem capable of understanding resolution, screen size and viewing distance as important factors that interplay with each other.
8k is absolutely pointless on a 49" TV that is several metres away. However, I will take 4k over 1080 on even a 24" computer screen every time.
That is just me though, your preferences and vision may be different to mine. Same with the monitors. You like multiple screens, I prefer a single larger screen.
TV manufacturers salivated at the idea of TV resolution, hoping desperately to turn the TV market into something like the PC market, in that you have to upgrade every 5ish years to stay on top of technology and use the latest stuff to artificially increase sales beyond what their already abysmal build qualities provide them.
I’m glad the plan is failing spectacularly.
Hopefully this forces them to think more about quality and start focusing on TVs that actually last now… You know, like we used to have 30 years ago.
I have an fairly high end TV and honestly I don’t know what the point is because there is virtually no content that’s available for it.
Pretty much none of the streaming services go beyond 4K and often they’re at 1080p and I have to upscale to 4K. Consoles also don’t go above that 4k and again often in fact don’t even hit that.
All we want is a clear picture and no ads.
Did you say you want really clear ads? We got just that!
4k is a little much for me.
Do you use 27-inch monitors?
At a certain point yours eyes can’t tell much difference. It is like music, people would obsess over tweaking their stereo systems to the point where I doubt you could physically tell the difference, it was mostly imagined.
Huge tvs also require big rooms to make the viewing angle work. Not everyone has a room they work in. Apartments are especially too small for huge tvs.
The coathanger experiment should have been the coffin lid on all the audiophile/overpriced super ultra premium cable bullshit.
I never knew about this but it’s hilarious: https://www.soundguys.com/cable-myths-reviving-the-coathanger-test-23553/
4k is enough, 60fps is enough, no smart or AI stuff is perfectly fine…
What about reducing the energy consumption? That’s an innovation I want.
I hope you mean 60hz is enough for TVs. Because I certainly don’t want that regression on my monitor 😄
Totally agree. Huge difference when moving windows or gaming on a 120 Hz or higher monitor. So smooth.
Never noticed.
Honestly you will. You probably never compared the two side by side.
It’s incredibly apparent, you think it’s smooth but then when you go over to 120 Hz and then go back the difference is very apparent.
I had a 980ti for AGES that could do 120hz at 1080. got a big 4k screen, immediately had to upgrade the gpu because it wouldn’t do 4k at anything higher than 60hz. even moving the mouse across the screen felt sluggish.
The forbidden comparaison.
People live happily untill they do it. Than … Than they can’t ever go back . It’s a curse.
Don’t taste the forbidden fruit
You have never noticed the difference between 60 and 120hz?
When I tried a game that had a 120hz mode, I had to lower the quality a little to get it work well, but didn’t notice a big difference, but there was a difference.
A few days later I went back to 60hz so i could increase the graphics quality , and the difference was crazy huge. I had to go back to 120hz.
60 and 240hz, yes I had it setup correctly.
120hz on my 4k 75in TV. Didn’t bother connecting it to WiFi. It’s a dumb TV now
So important that my windows move smoothly, right?
Just like my entire system. Smooth.
Are you aware that reducing the energy consumption on monitors is competely irrelevant compared to the giant data centers coming up now, taking as much as power as a full city?
One typical AI data center ≈ 1 TWh/year ≈ the electricity used by 100 000 average homes annually.
A very large AI data center under construction ≈ 20 TWh/year ≈ electricity for ~2 million homes annually.
Fun times isnt it.
By that logic, I should go out and just start a murder spree, because people die anyway so whats the point.
You can care about more than one thing
Of course, buy monitors that use a bit less energy. That will give you probably 1 dollar per year in savings, and you can spend that on something nicer. A cup of coffee maybe.
Yes, sort of like if your kitchen is on fire but you also need to vacuum the living room. You should definitely focus on finishing the vacuuming before addressing the fire, because, you know, you can care about more than one thing.
Fires are more urgent than messes, but we have firemen and custodians and need them both. The poster can vote with his wallet to get the best energy efficiency possible in his home electronics and possibly vote at the ballot box to help regulate corporate energy waste.
It doesn’t seem sane that he would have to forego every other endeavor in his life until the most urgent issue in it is resolved, even if there is no direct action he can take about that one at this time.
I need a new car and also to do the dishes. The new car is much more important, but I have no means to work on the car issue today and am already standing in the kitchen. Is it more productive if I pace around wringing my hands in concern about the car problem, or maybe wash some dishes now and get a car in the morning when the dealership opens?
You are describing urgent vs important. Fire fighting is always urgent, but in many ways, janitorial services are often more important to your daily life.
Try to keep up with me here: what if you could put out the fire and vacuum at the same time?
lemme guess, you’re gonna vaccum the fire 😭
Wait, that works!?
BRB!
I personally do reject that kind of thinking.
“But others are worse” reminds me of the kindergarten…
EU has introduced energy efficiency levels for monitors based on the potential and we are far from the goal.
I can’t tear down AI data centers, but I can choose to buy a monitor that does not heat up my living room and leads to a nicer electricity bill for me.
“I can’t tear down AI data”
I mean, if the wealthy won’t listen and they are trying to steal all our resources this is exactly what must happen.
I’m reminded of this type of absurdity every time my Creative T40 speakers auto-shut off after a few minutes of inactivity, and take 4 seconds to wake up again. Yes, that entire millijoule of (entirely renewable) electrical energy is making a huge difference.
Getting rid of my tv was the best thing I did for myself. That’s the future. Removing and reducing all screen time.
I love that for you
For me, the opposite was true. Ever since I injured my knees last year, putting a 75 inch TV in my bedroom has improved my quality of life.
I know people will probably say “oh just fix your knees” and think that sentiment is helping, but I tend to not take my medical advice from technology communities and instead listen to doctors. It makes me sound rude, but it’s true that medical advice should be given by medical professionals for the best outcome possible.
I really do love having a nice big TV in my bedroom.
Trust me this is not a technology community. If anything this is an anti-technology company more so than any other community that I’ve ever been a part of.
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We didnt have one for a long time.
Then we got one for free. So we use it for movies and some gaming together, but we dont have any streaming subscriptions.
I agree it’d be better to not have. But im into old console gaming so I like to have a couple tvs.
Its good to balance it with reading and exercising of course! But movie nights are fun.
Fuck.
Now instead of each new generation of TVs being slightly higher in resolution some god damn business tech executive is going to focus on some god damn bullshit to try and change or add which is going be absolutely fucking ridiculous or pointless and annoying like AI television shit or TV gaming or fuck my life. Smart TVs are bad enough but they can’t help themselves they need to change or add shit all the fucking time to “INNOVATE!!!” and show stockholder value.
Resolution was something easy and time consuming but we can’t rely on that keeping them from fucking TV up any more.
Real innovation:
Drink verification can!
Want us to put your show back on? Yes? Then read the following aloud 5 times while slapping your face continuously: “I am sofa king, stupid”.
What about Dairy Queen?
I want a dumb tv with the price and and specs of a smart tv. Less is more
My LG C3 not connected to internet and using an HTPC and Nvidia shield is working great so far.
I fucking love my C3. Also not connected to the internet. It’s gorgeous.
I don’t know why more people don’t do this. Don’t connect the TV to the Internet. Ever. Do updates using a flash drive if you must and connect whatever flavor streaming box you like. The TVs and their dumb os get slow and shitty anyway so why fuck around with it? Lol.
What you’re looking for are commercial screens. They’re a bit more expensive for a comparable panel, as they are intended for 24/7 use- but are about as dumb as they get nowadays.
A bit more expensive? I was able to get a smart tv for like 800 bucks. The same equivalent dumb tv would have been a few thousand dollars and Best Buy said they would only sell it to business accounts which was infuriating to read.
This isn’t a peasant TV. And it doesn’t even have any tracking, I am not sure a pleb can even legally own these. Sorry, but you have to be a wealthy person who watches CP to have it in your home.
You would likely have to pay more since they aren’t getting to sell your information.
*you would have to pay more because major companies know they can charge more. There isn’t a limited amount of profit a company wants to mae, and then they pick a price from that, they price it as high as the market will bear.
I second this.
The TV industry can crash and burn otherwise.
Realistically, not only do I not want an 8k tv, but I might not get a tv at all, if I had to do it today. We rarely watch tv anymore. The brainrot is the same but we’re much more likely to use individual screens
The only real innovation after 1080p for TV was HDR, sound stuff, 60-120hz, and upscaling to 4k.
You missed the 3D which came and went because nothing really supported it.
Only time I used 3D on my TV was playing Black Ops split-screen, where both players got the full screen, which was pretty neat.
It’s about time the electronics industry as a whole realises that innovation for the sake of innovation is rarely a good thing
Look, we can’t have TVs that last 15 years anymore!
We need to keep people buying every year or two. Otherwise line not go up! Don’t you understand that this is about protecting The Economy?!
Boomers economic policy is like if Issac Newton saw an apple falling from a tree, and came to the conclusion it would always accelerate at the same speed no matter what, even though the ground with the entire ass planet behind it is right fucking there.
Numbers can not constantly go up, it’s just that’s what was happening their whole lives and they can’t accept that their childhoods was a blip and not how things always were and always will be.
They just can’t wrap their heads around it. They have such shit tier empathy they can’t comprehend that they’re an exception.
A large number of the problems we currently face and will in the future come down to boomers being worse than their predecessors at grasping, understanding, and accepting their own impermanence and unimportance on the grand stage of reality.
Most of them need to have a series of existential crises or maybe read some fucking Satre so they can stop with the Me generation bullshit. It’s wild that the first generation to do LSD in mass is somehow the one that needs to experience ego death the most
It’s wild that the first generation to do LSD in mass
I want to say hippies were less than 1% of that generation, but for some reason I think it was recorded as 2-3% which would be a gross over-estimate.
But for every hippie you think of sticking daisies in rifles, there was 100 spitting on Black kids for going to the school they were legally required to go to.
It would be like if in 2080 they think we’re all catboys with blue hair and 37 facial piercings.
Sure, those people exist as a fringe demographic, but they’re not the norm.
Bmost hippies had more issues with peers their own age than their parents age, that part of the folk tale gets left out tho, because the people who want us to think they were hippies and “grew out of it” were the ones beating hippies for being different.
All they were ever trying to do was lie to younger generations in the hopes they’d confirm to decades old social norms. Like, it’s weird how many people still don’t understand the boomers just lie about shit instinctively. They grew up in a world filled with lead and are literally incapable of caring about logical inconsistencies. They want younger generations to think they were cool, so they just fucking lied about what they were like as a generation.
If you ever run into a real deal old hippie some day, ask them what the majority of people their age was like back then.
To be fair Boomers didn’t create this economic policy. Their parents elected Nixon, who broke the Bretton Woods agreement “temporarily”, and then we adopted Keynesian macroeconomic policy afterwards to justify it.
Inb4 someone regurgitates a defense of this “boomer” policy and proves that it’s not just them and never was. It’s always been the rich and their loyal servants.
It’s not even innovation, per say. It’s just Big Number Go Up.
Nobody seems to want to make a TV that makes watching TV more pleasant. They just want to turn these things into giant bespoke advertising billboards in your living room.
Show me the TV manufacturer who includes an onboard ad blocker. That’s some fucking innovation.
The galaxy brain move is buying an old dumb tv for a pittance and use it for watching Jellyfin/Plex/stream from a browser with uBlock Origin/DNS filtering – all running on some relative’s “obsolete” smart toaster from last year that they happily gift you because “the new version’s bagel mode IS LIT – pun intended – but it needs the 128 gb DDR7 ram of the new model, can barely toast on the old one any more”.
I think this just comes down to human nature. Give people (engineers, execs) a metric that looks like a good proxy for performance and they will overcommit on that metric as it is a safer bet than thinking outside the box. I think the incremental improvements in deep learning with all those benchmarks are a similar situation.
You can’t really find a dumb TV anymore. I might see how big of a monkey I can find when I’m ready to upgrade, but I doubt I’ll find one big enough and cheap enough.
I hooked my computer up to the HDMI and have used that as my primary interface.
It’s not perfect, but it screens out 95% of bullshit
That doesn’t, unless you’ve blocked your TV from network access, because they use ACR - Automated Content Recognition - that literally scans what is being displayed over your hdmi port and then sells it off to advertisers.
I think you missed the part where the TV doesn’t have access to the network.
And wait, no you’re thinking of a different thread. This thread mentioned no such thing.
They can connect to open WiFi spots and just ignore the fact that you didn’t connect it.
Just don’t give the TV your wifi password, boom dumb TV.
That won’t save you anymore. My boss bought a smallish smart TV in contravention of my explicit instructions for use as a CCTV monitor because it was “cheap.” It nags you on power up with a popup whining about not being able to access the internet, and if you don’t feed it your Wifi password it will subsequently display that same popup every 30 minutes or so requiring you to dismiss it again. And again. And again. Apparently the play is to just annoy you into caving and letting it access your network.
Instead I packed it up and returned it. Fuck that.
If you are at a business you should have an access point or router that is capable of blocking specific devices from WAN access. But I would create a new segmented network, block that network from WAN access entirely, put it on its own VLAN, and then connect the TV to that network.
I’d assume it nags whenever it can’t connect to the home server, and just says “network”.
So when they go out of business any remaining units will nag forever.
You can use your router or access point tools to check what address it’s trying to resolve and then set up a redirect to a device that can respond with a fake response.
FireWire got killed too soon.
Too right, brother
Wha?
AFAIK FireWire is part of the Thunderbolt protocol, you can get FireWire 800 to Thunderbolt adapters. Apple even used to sell one.
Apple killed Firewire 4 years before Lightning came along.
??? My 2012 MacBook Pro had FireWire, that’s the year Lightning came out…
Apple announced it was moving away from Firewire in 2008
My current Macbook (M2 Air from 2022) can sync with my 4th gen iPod over FireWire if I have the right adapters.
it was way too ahead of its time.
We traded 3D tv’s, which are amazing if you watch the right stuff, for 8k…
8k is great, but we need media in 8k to go with it.
Gaming was supposed to be one of the best drivers for 8K adoption.
Whu? Where 4k still struggles with GPU power? And for next to no benefit?
8k would be cool to display lots of windows at the same time but fairly useless for gaming.
Everything above 1440p isn’t offering any display space. I have a 4K monitor but 150% DPI is needed to make things big enough to work with.
I’m using a 5k by 1200 monitor and it’s awesome with Kde. I suppose it would be equally great with other interfaces.
Introducing the new DLSS 9, were we upscale 720p to 8k. Looks better than native, pinky swear.
What’s dumb is that 3D failed because of lack of resolution and brightness, and now we have more pixels than we can handle and screens so bright they can hurt to look at. PS3 had a couple games that showed different screens to two players wearing 3D glasses. I’d love to see full screen couch coop games with modern tech. 8K isn’t solving any problems.
3D failed for the exact same reason VR is failing now. Nobody wants to wear headsets at home.
Nobody wants to wear headsets at home.
Or anywhere, really. AR/XR glasses are a big improvement, but can still be clunky.
Or bring on the neural shunt. Not so fast, Elon. It’s not for your purposes. It’s for mine. And I can’t see who I could trust with direct connections to my brain… But once I plugged in, I love Amazon, and you should subscribe!
But VR can do a lot of cool things, 3d… not so much.
Screen dimming is technically possible over HDMI/Displayport no idea why its not properly supported and integrated into monitors, graphics drivers, windows and Linux. KDE shows dimming for monitors sometimes? Don’t know if that is software or real hardware dimming though.
It’s real hardware dimming.
Nice thought so but wasn’t sure.
I’m talking about brightness in context of 3d. KDE uses DDE with USB connected monitors which is the same thing as using a button to lower brightness.
I dunno. Oxygen Not Included looks crisp on a 4K monitor. And it makes my job easier, being able to have an absolute tonne of code on-screen and readable. I reckon I could probably use an 8K monitor for those things.
Yeah, I generally have FSR running on any 3D game made in about the last decade - even if I can run it at 4K at a reasonable framerate, my computer fans start to sound like a hoover and the whole room starts warming up. But upscaling seems a better solution than having separate monitors for work and play.
Yeah, can’t run it, Internet too slow to steam it
Pretty sure my GPU could run 4k Rimworld, just play good games instead of AAA games.
But we are talking TV. RPG with a controller is more suitable here. And there are some great RPG games.
FR. What distance and size do I need to be able to actually see the difference between 1080p and 4K? Cuz my current setup does not allow me to notice anything but the massive reduction in performance, unless it’s a 2D game and then everything becomes too tiny to effectively play the game.
4k is noticeable in a standard pc.
I recently bought a 1440p screen (for productivity, not gaming) and I can fit so much more UI with the same visual fidelity compared to 1080p. Of course, the screen needs to be physically bigger in order for the text to be the same size.
So if 1080p->1440p is noticeable, 1080p->4k must be too.
Like I said, 2D things it is noticable only because it makes everything smaller (there is more space because the elements inside that space are smaller). However movies and 3D games? No difference.
Even going from 640x480 to 1024x768 makes a noticeable size difference with the 2D elements of a UI.
It’s about 60”. That’s the point where we noticed pixels at 1080P. HDR is more important.
I’m using a 60 inch tv as a monitor to my desktop - I sit in front of it at a distance of about 2m. It feels really nice to have stuff in 4k, so it’s always 4k except the games that are too tough for my 2060 super to give me 60p.
It’s very noticeable at the DPI of a 27" screen from arms’ length. Or maybe not if you can’t see very well. But on a TV from 10 feet away, I dunno if I could differentiate 1440p from 4K personally.
I have 27 inch 2k monitors at work, and it’s already enough
27" 2K is a good DPI. I personally only went up to 4K 27" because I also wanted OLED, and the 2K OLED panel I was using had some noticeable text fringing because of the subpixel layout. At 4K it’s not noticeable anymore.
For PC you can actually see the benefit between 4K and lower resolutions.
It’s for TV where it’s likely useless to have 8K
I am on a PC… You mean a smaller monitor closer to my face?
Yes, that’s what I am saying, for a monitor you can easily see the difference between 4K and lower. While for a tv if I remember correctly for a 55’ over 2 meters and something from the TV you can’t tell the difference between 4k and 1080p
There’s no 8k content, and only recently do standard connectors support 8k at high refresh rates.
There’s barely any actual 4K content you can consume.
There is a lot 4K to consume now. That was the reality 5 years ago (even 4K exists more than 10). I would say 4K is becoming slowly the new FHD, but very very slowly.
The problem is that there is a lot low quality 4K, because of bandwidth, size etc.
I feel like most streaming platforms plan lock it and still compress it to crap though.
There’s barely any actual 4K content you can consume.
Honestly a little surprised the IMAX guys didn’t start churning out 4k+ content given that they’ve been in the business forever.
But I guess “IMAX in your living room” isn’t as sexy when the screen is 60" rather than 60’
You don’t even need IMAX for 4K; ordinary 35mm film can normal scan to a nice 4K video. Films shot on the 65mm IMAX cameras would probably make good 8K content, but most of that was educational films, not what most people apparently want to watch all the time.
The digital IMAX projections were actually a step backwards in resolution.
Films shot on the 65mm IMAX cameras would probably make good 8K content, but most of that was educational films, not what most people apparently want to watch all the time.
Sure. But the cameras exist. You can use them for other stuff.
Hateful Eight was filmed in 70mm, and while it wasn’t Tarantino’s best work it certainly looked nice.
65mm is a gulf from 15/65 though. Much harder to shoot in IMAX format.
IMAX is a mess. They can’t even figure out a consistent aspect ratio, so most of the content shot on IMAX is cropped after delivery.
IMAX film is equivalent to 12K. Their digital laser projectors are only 4K.
Films shot on the 65mm IMAX cameras would probably make good 8K content
So there’s still hope that they might release The Last Buffalo in 8k 3D sometime in the future? Got it. :)
They don’t want IMAX in your living room, they want IMAX in the IMAX theater, where you pay a premium for their service.
IMAX is 4K or less content. Its edge is special projection that can look good and brighter on huge screens.
Only imax film prints are significantly better than anything else
People really need to understand a lot of what “smart” TVs do is upscale the “4k” signal to something actually resembling real 4k.
Like how some 4k torrents are 3GB, and then a 1080p of the same movie is 20gb.
It’s “worse” resolution, but it looks miles better because it’s upscaling real 1080 to 4k instead of taking existing shitty 4k and trying to make it look better without just juicing the resolution.
So we don’t need 8k.content for 8k.tvs to be an incentive. We need real 4k media, then 8ks TV would show a real improvement.
Yeah, you’re talking about bitrate. A lot of the 4k content is encoded using more efficient codecs, but if it’s sourced from the streaming services the bitrate is so abysmal it’s usually a tossup between the 1080p or 4k stream. At least the 4k usually has hdr these days which is appreciable.
Yeah most of the time I don’t give a fuck about 4k. It’s HDR I’m after.
Yeah. A 1080p Bluray clocks in around 20GB. A 4K bluray is 60-80GB.
If you’re downloading something smaller it’s probably lower quality
There’s barely any actual 4K content you can consume
I feel like that’s not true. But you’ve gotta try. If you’re streaming it, chances are it’s not really any better. 4K Bluray (or rips of them…) though? Yeah it’s good. And since film actually has 8K+ resolution old movies can be rescanned into high resolution if the original film exists.
Supposedly Sony Pictures Core is one streaming service that can push nearly 4K Bluray bitrates… but you’ve gotta have really good internet. Like pulling 50-80GB in the span of a movie runtime.
You’re probably aware of this since you mentioned bitrate, but a lot of 4K streaming services use bitrates that are too low to capture much more detail at 4K compared to a lower resolution. A lot of games will recommend/effectively require upscaling (DLSS/FSR/XeSS) to achieve good performance at 4K. All of this is still maybe better than 1440p, but it shows 4K is still kind of hard to make full use of.
Witcher 3 is the bane of my existence at 4K. Even with DLSS it runs like ass on my 5070 ti.
I wish they didn’t feel the need to fake it with upscaling. In my experience upscaling looks like shit every time, whether it’s a video or game. Most of the time a good 1080p video with good bit rate will look way better than a 4k upscale.
For video, bitrate is definitely king. 4K high bitrate just gets insanely large. I opt for 1080p bluray quality when available over 4K usually. I looked into AI upscaling for video recently and it can be pretty good, but it’s a technology that changes fast so I’d rather store the original resolution and upscale in real time later (if at all).
For games, I find even FSR2 upscaling from 1440p to 2160p is excellent as long as it’s implemented properly (i.e. scaling the 3D world and not the UI), and FSR3/4 even better.
Not true on paper but true in practice. Most people don’t buy/use Blurays (or any other physical media) anymore to the point that retailers aren’t even bothering to stock them on the shelves these days. Their days are certainly numbered and then all we’ll be left with is low quality 4k streaming.
There’s barely any actual 4K content you can consume.
Ironically there actually is if you bother pirating content because that’s the only crowd that will share full 4k Dolby Vision + Dolby Atmos/DTS-X BluRay rips.
Aside from that though, even 4k gaming is a struggle because GPU vendors went into the deep end of frame generation, which also coincidentally is the same mistake lots of TV OEMs already made.
I’ve got a nice 4k mini LED tv with a 4k Blu-ray player and there’s plenty of excellent 4k content but it’s a niche market because most people aren’t using physical media for movies. 4k streaming is garbage compared to UHD Blu-ray.
Preach. I got gifted a 4k bluray player and was absolutely blown away by how good it looks compared to streaming.
Which makes sense because even 1080p streaming is garbage compared to blu-ray.
